We (David, Ray Telford of Sounds, and I) stood out like tramps at the Queens dinner party, but Felix had apparently only just risen (at 3pm) and the maid was tidying up his room, so we had to hang around for a bit. After half an hour or so, we went up and found Felix (bassplayer, writer, producer, arranger, and leader - among other roles) seated pixie-style on some kind of antique looking chair, and Leslie (variously described as a "300 Ib psyche delic canary", "400 lb showman", "500 Ib groupie's nightmare" and "600 Ib ultimate heavy musician") depressing most of the mattress on a supersoft double bed Both had obviously steeled themselves for the miserable chore of facing over a dozen interviewers for some 5 or 6 hours.

As it happened, I didn't have any questions about Cream, but I had about 2000 others. You see, Mountain's roots stretch back for years, and I'd spent a bit of time digging out relevant questions .... they're a band I can get pretty enthusiastic about, and a band that I want to fill a few pages about, but even so, the interview is necessarily compressed. But start reading on this premise; I really dig Mountain.

Felix Pappalardi is a walking compendium of the development of rock on the East coast of America. Let's go back to the folk revival/boom peak in Greenwich Village: by summer 1961, the VillageIs idols were Fred Neil, Dino Valente and Bob Dylan; Richie Havens was just starting to get noticed, Tim Hardin appeared, Jack Elliott returned, Dave Van Ronk and Tom Paxton were there. By summer 1962, the beatnik/folk/coffee house scene had become well laced with protest and drugs - nobody talked of anything except acid and speed. Phil Ochs and John Sebastian arrived 1963 brought the rediscovery of Mississippi John Hurt, the appearance of the amazing Holy Modal Rounders, and the arrival of Felix Pappalardi. Time now for a mini-biog: Son of a doctor, born in the Bronx area of New York 31 years ago, studied conducting, musical Iiterature, orchestration, trumpet, viola, and God knows what else at the University of Michigan before he got kicked out, was a military policeman in the army, sold encyclopaedias for three months and then finally got himself together and slouched into the Village.

Felix: The thing that brought me down there in the first place was that all the best musicians I'd ever heard were down there and living within a 20 or 30 square block area of one another. I started just going down there at weekends, then got to staying there overnight and finally left home and stayed there forever it seems like. To begin with I was just playing guitar and singing, then I played a 6 string Mexican bass called a guitarron behind people like Tom Rush and Tom Paxton. I teamed up with John Sebastian and various other people and we become studio musicians for Elektra and Vanguard, as well as accompanying people I ike Fred Neil in the clubs. It was a great period of time for me - I loved it.

ZZ: Was it good moneywise?

Felix: It was a living....but the thing about it was the experience.

(During his Greenwich Village years, he played on and arranged a great many records (see later for the complete list), but the first instance of one of his songs being recorded was in Mid 1964 when the Vil- lage's first electric folk-rock group, the Mugwumps recorded 'Do you know what I mean?')

Felix: I was also signed to Columbia as a solo artiste during that time, but had only one single released - we just didn't get it on - and that was part of the reason that I finally went into production myself . . . I couldn't find anyone with the feel or technique that I wanted.

ZZ: What were the tracks you recorded?

Felix: One was called 'Love Sunday'.. . (breaks into laughter) my producers wanted me to change my name to Billy Gleam.

ZZ: Then you did a lot of touring with lan & Sylvia, which brings us up to mid 66 when you were reputedly working with 'several mid-eastern groups'.

Felix: That's right; I was with a group called The Devil's Anvil (with Mountain keyboard player Steve Knight) which came out of a Village cIub called the Feenjon . We used to back a lot of well known instru- mentalists in that mid-eastern field.... great players, some of them.

ZZ: In late 66 you produced the Youngbloods first RCA album (never released here - the fools).... how did you get that job?

Felix: Well, I was on the street.... I had been doing things which maybe gave Jesse Colin Young and the guys the impression that I would be good at it. I really loved them, they were such an exciting band then - used to play at the Cafe au GoGo, over the street from the Bitter End - and Jerry Corbitt's voice and Jesse's together were beautiful .

ZZ: Their contract with RCA was a bit of a milestone, wasn't it - they were given more freedom than any other group, which resulted in that album costing 28000 dollars, right ?

Felix: Right. Up until that time, people got rushed in and out of studios, except those old Elektra sessions where music ians would come and stay all night, which enabled us to get cxactly what we wanted on those albums. The two unique clauses that the Youngbloods had in their contract were unlimited studio time and their choice of producer.... it was unheard of at that time, and this sort of victory over the record company buzzed all over town. I was the choice of producer and used the time as I saw fit.... paying no attention to the executives of RCA.

ZZ: Was it so expensive because there were a lot of goofs?

Felix: No no. . it was a case of develop ing it to where it had to be, which I'm still into today - I don't take any notice of the clock.... in fact I hate studios which even have clocks.... of course, they all do. But l'm in the process of having a studio designed, which I hope will be the best.... I'm sure that everyone who builds a studio thinks it's the best, but this one will be for me. I was telling Rick Danko of the Band about it, and his eyes were out here - like basketballs.... they have a similar sort of thing up at Woodstock, where they can take a break from the session, open the door and they are in the woods rather than the concrete jungle we go out into. I mean, the Record Plant is on 46th and Broadway.... and that's hairy country.

ZZ: Where will your studio be - in Nantucket, for convenience, I suppose? (Felix has a farm in Nantucket).

Felix: Yeah - it'd be in Nantucket, but it wouldn't be particularly convenient. .. it'd be difficult in fact. But I'm going to give it a try.

ZZ: How are you going to find the time? I mean, you must have been busy when you were producing Cream and so on, but now youlre in a band you can't have much spare time.

Felix: In a way I have more time now, because the thing with Mountain is so relatively easy - do you know what I mean? I mean, I Iove LesIie.... we have very few problems and when we do have them, we've known each other long enough to work them out very simply and quickly. The hassles that were always there in my producing days, aren't anymore.... so I seem to have more time.

ZZ: Letls get back to your history; I read about a group called Bo Grumpus that you were producing in mid 68, but nothing ever appeared - what happened to them?

Felix: Well, I got them to the studio twice; once as Bo Grumpus and once as Jolliver Arkansaw....and the Jolliver album was about as far as that group could go.... it was them at their very level best, and they broke up straight afterwards. But that album was what finally sucked me and Leslie together, because Leslie played a solo on that last track on side two which killed me.... that was it - it was a burner. And he played a burner last night on a session we did for Bobby Keyes' album with Dave Mason and Nicky Hopkins. . . he played such a burner that we laughed.... everyone was laughing.

Leslie (deciding to speak): Listen, I gotta tell you something- Felix taught me how to play studio sessions - to fill holes and to leave lines open...

Felix: Yeah - last night, he was an expert studio musician....and when we were doing the Who sessions too (they're on the next Who LP). You see, Leslie went into the Vagrants when he was at school....and just playing with 4 guys was a much more rigid situation than studio work, but now he's become a fantastic studio man. We really had a good play with those guys last night. It's something we've always wanted to do - play in London, where you have thousands of musicians.... everyone is in London, whereas in America it's so spread out; there's the San Francisco school, the LA school, the Atlanta guys, Memphis, Muscle Shoals, New York, Nashville ...but last night...phew! I didn't have any picks with me and had to play with my fingers - I've got a blister the size of a full moon.

ZZ: Leslie, can we talk a bit about the Vagrants? That was your first band, right ?

Leslie: Right. We were all at school to gether in queens, New York I was learn ing to play guitar, my brother was learning bass, the drummer was learning to play the drums and so on. We were just kids who decided to form a band

ZZ: I've got two singles by the Vagrants on Atco....were they the only ones?

LesIie: Yeah

ZZ: When you started in 1965, were you playing the same clubs as the Spoonful, the Strangers, the Youngbloods and that lot?

Leslie: No, we played clubs all over New York and New York State.

Felix: . .but they weren't involved in the scene like those others you mentioned.... they just did their gigs and went home to Queens . Everything was still happening in Greenwich Village, which was like a colony for experimenting musicians.

ZZ: The first single 'Respect' was fabulous (it really was - rolling, turbulent, great) - was the producer, Dave Brigati, any relation of Eddie Brigati in the Rascals?

Leslie: He's his brother - so we had the Rsscals on that as background singers . .. they're great background singers. I'll tell you about that record; that was a great record and it could've been a big one if they hadn't insisted on putting it on the b side (the a side was a banal piece of shit written by the producer's publishing company), but I was the only one of the Vagrants playing on that - the rest were studio men - Eric Gale on guitar, Chuck Raney on bass, and Ronnie Roach on drums . . .

Felix:. ..and those guys were the best Eric Gale is one of the most incredible players in New York, and Chuck Raney was on a lot of those Motown records like 'Baby Love' - really phenomenal playing just ripped my head off - so those people; were a big influence on Leslie back in 1965, and those guys weren't chopped liver, as they say.

Leslie: The producers told the rest of the Vagrants to go and sit in the control room when we got to the studio, and I felt like a fuckin' asshole playing with Eric Gale who kept looking at me as if to say 'Who the hell is this fat kid from Queens?'

Felix: The first solo I ever heard Leslie play was very weird, but I said 'something is happening', and then he played a solo on 'Beside the Sea' (the b side of 'Sunny Summer Rain' - the other Vagrants/Atco single which came out in 1967), which I played to Van Dyke Parks - and he came right out of his chair; "Who is that cat?" So I told him it's this young cat from New York, who sure can play.

ZZ: How did you swltch from the 'Respect' type material to the Iyrical love/sea/rain/ trees/romantic stuff which was on the 67 single?

Leslie: I saw Cream at the Village Theatre. . . I was on acid at the time. Well, after seeing Clapton, what could I do?... it was either shit, or get off the pot.

ZZ: So you decided on the former?

Felix: He was either going to play the guitar or hang it up, and the change came coincidental with my meeting him.

ZZ: I see that the two songs on that single were written by you (Felix) and someone called Sommer....was that Bert Sommer? (His records never seem to get released over here).

Felix: Sure was, man...far out cat. He had tne lead in 'Hair', but he's getting a Iittle bit carried away.... he stares a lot - maybe he's taken one gram too many.... but he named the group, Mountain.

ZZ: Who was the drummer on that - N.D. Smart? Was he the bloke in those early Boston groups?

Felix: He was in lots of groups - Barry and the Remains, the Trols, Hello People, hundreds of 'em. I saw him up at Woodstock recently with lan & Sylvia. . .

Leslie:. . . yeah, man, and I saw Colegrove (bassplayer in Jolliver Arkansaw) up there too, and he didn't even say hello.... Iooked right in my face. Like I said, I used to be real friends with them and played on their album, but when they saw me playing with Felix and laughing and getting off, all of a sudden they're not friends. Felix stopped paying them after the album, and I guess they blame me for ending their ride .... but they used to piss me off anyway.

ZZ: What about N Landsberg, who played the organ?

Felix: He was in a band that Leslie tried to get going between the Vagrants and Mountain. I went to see them and came away saying 'I'm sorry Leslie, but there is no way that I can record that band'.... but the next night I played bass with them, and we heard that thing we had together, and Mountain really had to start.

ZZ: How do you rate that album, two years Iater ?

Felix: Well, it was a matter of evolution. Let me put it this way - I love Nantucket Sleighride, if you see what I mean. It's all experimentation.

ZZ: I think some of it stands up still some are too Creamy, but others, like 'Long Red' and 'Because you are a friend' are really nice. (Note: this album came out in England on Bell but is deleted. The import on Windfall 4500 is still available).

Felix: Right - well it got Leslie out there and he started writing too, which he had never done before. I knew that if he were heard he'd be appreciated and that was my aim - to get him rated as much as I rate him - he's my favourite guitar player.... among many I might add.

ZZ: As a matter of interest, Mott the Hoople are going around acting as sort of unofficial publicists for Mountain - they sing 'Long Red'.

Felix: That's really good!

ZZ: Am I right in thinking that Mountain officially started on July 2nd 1969 with you, Leslie, Steve Knight (who knew Felix from the old Devil's Anvil days), and Norman Smart?

Felix: Yes, and then the following September we got Corky Laing in on drums (to replace Smart). He was in a Montreal group called Energy who used to be called Bartholomew Plus 3 - they used to play sweet 16 parties and things like that.

ZZ: How does Leslie get that dulcimer effect on 'To my friend'? (On 'Climbing' LP - out here on Bell)

Felix: Well, it's a twelve string with some sort of weird, bastard tuning, but instead of just recording it straight, we did it on three tracks and mixed it to get the echo effects and the pick noises. It's one of my favourite 12 string recordings - it's a beautiful piece too.

ZZ: Under what circunstances did 'For Yasgur's Farm' come to be written?

Felix: It was written over a long period of time; it was originally an Energy piece of material - from Corgy's old band - then it went through changes. We played Woodstock (their 4th gig) and because of the emotional impact it had on us, we sort of changed the words around to fit that occasion.

ZZ: The other one that really intrigues me is 'The Laird'. . .

Felix: Gail (Gail Collins, his wife) and I wrote that for Eldridge Cleaver . . . for and about him, I guess - his exile to Algiers, the line that says "his soul is on paper, published in tears". In a very unique and strange way, he is a giant hero, as I'm sure you know - he was leader of the Black Panthers and exiled because of what he believes - because, as right as it is, it's extremely revolutionary. We called him The Laird because calling him that is emulatory, and it was that kind of thing.

ZZ: Can we talk about the title track (of their new Island album)? I assume that having moved to Nantucket, you've become immersed in the history and lore of that area, and that inspired the song.

Felix: Right. Between about 1810 and 1840, Nantucket, along with New Bedford, was the capital of the whaling industry, which collapsed as petroleum replaced oil for burning in lamps and whalebone was superseded in corset manufacture. But the people engaged in whaling were so brave, so incredibly brave; it wasn't I ike today where they use a huge 80mm cannon - this was a small number of men leaving the mother ship in a longboat, with a harpooner at the front. When that whale took off after being speared with the first harpoon, it was not a sure thing that man would win - and there were lots of cripples all over Nantucket to prove it. (The term 'Nantucket sleighride' comes from the boat being dragged along the wave crests at some 30 mph by the injured whale).

ZZ: The song is basically about the great strength of love that bound the whaling families and enabled them to survive the long periods apart, right?

Felix: I think that's probably the best way to express the theme; leaving your wife and family and all of your friends for 3 years...so brave. It's Gail's Iyric....

Felix: He was one of the famous Nantucket captains - he built 3 famous, matching pillared houses on Main Street in the 1820s - one for each of his sons.

ZZ: How did you manage to conjure up that arrangement, which is so appropriate - as well as getting transported into that era, you can almost see the seagulls....

Felix: Well, it happened in the playing all the guys are so creative. But it was totally written, and we just played it the result was this feeling that the track has . . . that's the part of it that has always knocked me out - I can feel the sea spray ....1 can see the waves and everything. Of course, Bob D'Orleans, who's my engineer, is a brilliant engineer.

ZZ: Who is Owen Coffin, to whom the song is dedicated?

Felix: Owen Coffin....he was in the crew of the ship 'Essex', which figured in the most famous of all whaling disasters. The ship went off in 1820 and was stove in by a whale - it actually turned round and smashed into the hull of the ship. After a day and a half, it sunk, and they were thousands of miles from any place where they could land - not just any land, be cause there were cannibals and headhun ters about then - but a safe place. Well, to cut a long story short, it reached the point where 5 of them were trying to get to land in this long boat, and they had to draw straws to see who was going to die to feed and sustain the other 4....and Owen Coffin drew the short straw.

ZZ: Oh Christ! Did he save the others?

Felix: Yes, he did. They ate him and survived long enough to reach safety. The only one who wouldn't eat him was his uncle - Captain George Pollard, who was the master of the ship. Isn't that unbelievable? I mean, it's so fucking devastating, isn't it?

ZZ: Did they just do him in? Just like that ?

Felix: Yes - they shot him - someone also had to draw a straw to put the gun to his head and fire. The Coffins are one of the famous old whaling families of Nantucket. I mean, it's such a phenomenal story that it just hit me like a sledgehammer when I heard it, and I had to read as many versions as I could find - I've read over 30 so far, and I'm still looking for more, just to find out anything else I can about it.

ZZ: How long did the mix take on that track? (To change the subject swiftly).

Felix: Well that one was a very simple mix - the technique I use is that if it's recorded right in the first place, the mix is almost academic.

ZZ: You don't rely on 'fixtng' the sounds in the mix?

Felix: Oh no....that's the cop-out...you can't really fix anything in the mlx; It's not magic, it's just knobs and dials that do things to the sound you have on tape. Effects are possible - I never put echo on tape because you never know how much echo you're going to need - for placement, for instance.

ZZ: What, for placing instruments in the stereo spectrum?

Felix: Yes - and I see that as from left to right. . . not just left, right and centre .... my stereo mixes are based on that.

ZZ: So you have the instrument basically in one speaker, and use varying amounts of echo to place it?

Felix: Well you can have echo return on the other side, yes, so that you can place it, or you can actually move it with a pan pot, which means basically that if you have equal amounts of something coming from left and right, it appears in the cen tre but you can vary the amounts to move it ;round. Then, if you want two of one thing, you use a VFO and slow one side down _ that changes the sound and pitch so that you can hear them both separately.

ZZ: What's a VFO?

Felix: A varlable frequency oscillator, whlch slows down or speeds up the motor which runs the tape machine.

ZZ: So by slowing one side fractionally, you get enough separation?

Fellx: That's right.

ZZ: I notice that you don t mess around with any production gimmicks like phasing, obvious channel switching and so on. . .

Felix: I lean towards very natural record ing, yes - that's how Tommy Dowd and I approached Cream too. There were some effects used, but I m more Interested In figuring out a way to get a feeling.

ZZ: Who is the 'Palmer' who co-wrote some of the songs?

Felix: That's Leslie's lady.

ZZ: Some are dedicated - like the one to poor old Owen Coffin . . . who is the Sammy to whom Taunta is dedicated?

Felix: Sammy was Leslie's dog - he was 14 years old when he died.... he was a little grey poodle that lived through the Vagrants and so on.... he meant something to us.

ZZ: Is that a theremin on that track?

Felix: No, that's a tiny German organ - a portable one - It's beautiful, isn't it.... and that echo we put on It.,/p>

ZZ: Who is EMP of 'Travellin in the dark'?

Felix: That's my mother, who died prematurely two years ago.

ZZ: And JMH of 'Tired Angels'?

Felix: James Marshall Hendrix.

ZZ: What inspired that Iyric?

Fellx: Hendrix's death.... in combination with the feeling of futillty of the artiste... that thing which everybody who plays has in common with one another. The Iyric says it. You see, Jimi was always very interested in Mountain - he was the first person ever to hear Climbing. He and Leslie have phenomenal amount in common.

ZZ: It makes me smile when I hear people saylng that Mountain's music is nothing but noise - I don't think they can be listening too well.

Fellx: Yes - that's bullshit. But I believe that some people only hear what they want to hear, rather than what's actually going on .

ZZ: Did some critic actually call you and Leslie 'The Animal trainer and the toad'?

Felix: Yes, and Leslie wrote the song about my relationship to him.

ZZ: Would you say it's an appropriate alIegory ?

Fel ix: I don't know.... it'll do.

ZZ: Do you still get many requests to produce albums?

Felix: Yes I do, it's fantastic - I just wish I had time to do them all. I've been putting off Albert King for a year now, and I'm also working on Mylon Lefevre and Holy Smoke - he's a white gospel singer who grew up with Dylan.... he broke away, and now he's a freak. That's for Columbia.

ZZ: Do you tend to find that critics think that Mountain's biggest musical asset is your association with Cream?

Felix: Well, if they do, fuck 'em, because we're really involved In what we're doing and we love it despite what anybody wants to say. I saw a report today that said we were exhibitionists or something like that, well, if that's what the cat saw, then indeed that's what we are.... you know?

ZZ: Are audiences more demanding In America?

Fellx: Well, New York audiencs are tough. One time at the Fillmore we kept getting called back by a frantic audience and it got to the point where Leslie was throwing up at the side of the stage. But they were very good, because I went out and explained and they just said fine.

ZZ: You almost play yourselves to death then ?

Fellx: Sometlmes we do - I've seen Leslie looking deathly ill after shows.... l suppose that's the 'exhibitionist' bit comlng out in us.

ZZ Apart from a couple of tunes, the organist keeps well In the background and just gives body to the sound. ..

Felix: Yes - itis textural.... Itls carefully used because if It's not it could easly get obtrusive, which is not what it's there for. It's there to add colour and texture, and in that respect, I guess it's unique.

ZZ: You once sald "the key Is dynamics." What exactly did you mean? A combination of volume/motion/zap...

Felix: Yeah - and theatre.... the whole thing I guess. But we do have a maximum volume, which we don't exceed, and we can also play very, very softly.... so we are trying to use the whole range of dynamics as much as we can, and we're still developlng it. It's difficult, becauce when my bass is turned up, it does every thing but jump right out ot my hands.

Felix: It's a souped up Gibson Vlolin bass - but it's very souped up, with different capacitors.... it's really a hairy one.

................

* Click here to read the article Felix had banned from the press kit.